Senator Malarndirri McCarthy interview with Ross Greenwood, Money News 2GB.
ROSS GREENWOOD, 2GB: The Northern Territory Labor Senator Malarndirri McCarthy is on the line right now. Senator McCarthy thank you so much for your time. Just first thing, where did you get on to this idea to be able to ask this question in the first place?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY, NORTHERN TERRITORY SENATOR: Yeah good question. Look for your listeners just so they know, 12 years ago, the Federal Intervention occurred in the Northern Territory based on concerns around children, child sexual abuse and the concerns around needing to prohibit items around alcohol, gambling and pornography so thats happened and has been happening for the last 12 years.
GREENWOOD: So these arent such bad things to try to limit in communities that are vulnerable, do have issues of abuse taking place alcohol abuse, violence in those communities. So in that regard, is that a case where you are somewhat sympathetic, where you are trying to change behaviours in those communities?
MCCARTHY: No, Im trying to understand what has changed the Governments policy, where they were so intent 12 years ago to put people on the Basics Card in the Northern Territory as a result of their concern around gambling, alcohol, and pornography and now they want to roll out a new card over the Basics Card. So were talking about 21,000 in the Northern Territory who are on the Basics Card are now going to be moved to the Cashless Debit Card. And thats why I asked, I said well hang on a minute, if you can purchase pornography on the Cashless Debit Card but youve got people on the Basics Card where they cant, where has been your change in policy and why have you changed? Is there evidence to show that things have improved? So this is my line of questioning?
GREENWOOD: Its a very good line of questioning because again clearly it is about trying to change behaviour. In your travels, and you go through communities, do you see changes in behaviour as a result of these Cashless Debit Cards and basic debit cards inside some of these communities?
MCCARTHY: Well yeah again, its more the anecdotal evidence, and most of the feedback I get from people is real concern that they have no power over their financial situation and that they cant rise above poverty in their respective areas. So when the Federal Government said its now going to roll out the Cashless Debit Card, I said woah, hang on a minute, where has been your evaluation on the current card and where is your evidence to show that that has even worked before you move people on to a new card which exposes them to the very things you tried to prohibit them to, which is in this case pornography.
GREENWOOD: So one of the issues I have, and I know some of the most vulnerable communities in Australia have been Aboriginal communities when it came to the Royal Commission into Misconduct into Banking and Insurance where insurance products and some other financial products were sold to those communities and the people didnt know what they were buying and they were effectively almost bamboozled into buying products that gave very high commissions to those people who sold. And so my real concern here is people with Cashless Debit Cards who are seeking to buy things that might be outside of the remit of their card which is broadly and Ive got it in front of me you can use it for school excursions, the tuck shop, for garage sales. The money on the card can be used to shop, to pay bills, but no grog, no gambling, no cash. The issue I have here if a person chooses to have some of those things, they may very well sell away their rights to this Cashless Debit Card at a lower than face value price and thats what concerns me.
MCCARTHY: Youre spot on Ross and you would have seen that with the Royal Commission, that there is complete exploitation in these regional areas in Australia, in particular the First Nations Communities. And the Government is spending over $100 million on this Indue card, the Cashless Debit Card, which is designed to restrict peoples purchases but people can, on this card, they can transfer money to other people on the card so it just has too many faults and floors and Im just trying to examine it in the Estimates inquiry here.
GREENWOOD: And the other point also, it just seems that the rollout, as you say, if theres been a change in rules, a change in policy, then we do need to know about it because we are talking about some of the people who are the most vulnerable in our community and they do need to have their basics. But my point to you Senator is, when you do travel through the Northern Territory, when you do go to some of these areas where they have had the Basics Card has there been, in your observation, the anecdotal stuff, has there been that genuine change in these communities whereby theres less grog, where theres less tobacco, where theres fewer drugs, where theres less pornography, where theres, if you like, less exploitation of these people.
MCCARTHY: Sadly Ross, I have to say what concerns me is weve seen an increase in the incarceration of people, in the early deaths and attempted suicide of people, in the increase in family and domestic violence, so anecdotally thats certainly been the case and I know just from my own experience in the Gulf country where families are really, really suffering. So its critical that we understand what the policy change has been here and why and where is the evidence to support it.
GREENWOOD: And just tell me, as youve gone down this path, the actual connection with Indue, and the roll out of these cards, have you been able to get any information about the contract that goes behind this, the length of the contract, the way in which it rolls out and indeed whether there is any money being made off the side by virtue of the distribution of these cards?
MCCARTHY: Look at the moment, the information were receiving certainly through an Inquiry as well is that $100 million is spent on the Indue card Ross and all I can see is a waste of money here. It doesnt create a single job for participants on the card and I just think if were talking about creating jobs and making sure pensioners have houses, well lets make sure these decisions are made with proper evidence-based values and at this point its absent.
GREENWOOD: And Ive got to say that I given the fact and I even noticed today that banks are now significantly winding back the number of bank branches theyve got around Australia. I think there was another 250, Ill get the number, but it was a big number thats been knocked out just in the last year. What you really dont want is people effectively trading away their pensions for less money to be able to get services that otherwise might not be available on them. That is one of the real issues the Government has got to address.
MCCARTHY: Thats correct.
GREENWOOD: Labor Senator for the Northern Territory Malarndirri McCarthy who raised that issue and very sensibly raised that issue in Senate Estimates today because while you might very much have a welfare view on what should be spent and what shouldnt be spend with the welfare dollars, and I get that thoroughly, I totally understand that whether practically youre able to control it and therefore make certain youre protecting the people youre seeking to protect, I think thats another question altogether and I think thats the reasons why the Senators questions were so good today and I appreciate you time on the program this evening.
MCCARTHY: Thank you Ross, thank you to your listeners.
TRANSCRIPT -RADIO INTERVIEW -2GB MONEY NEWS WITH ROSS GREENWOOD -THURSDAY 24 OCTOBER 2019
