Subjects: Closing the Gap, Australia Day
DAVID SPEERS: A damning annual report from the Close the Gap campaign has reviewed the Closing the Gap strategy ten years since it began, and ahead of Mondays latest annual update and they found that its failing, basically, and that it has effectively been abandoned theyve argued, five years into it they say it ran off course.
For more on this, I am joined by Labor Senator Malarndirri McCarthy, Thanks very much for joining us. Is this your view of it as well, has closing the gap failed?
MCCARTHY: Its very concerning, in terms of where we are at, I think that the emergency meeting that is being held today in terms of Indigenous leaders from around the country with the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet certainly shows just how urgent this issue is and the fact that we are not doing well at all.
SPEERS: It is obvious in the last year or two that a lot of these targets are not being met. There are a couple that are on track. Why do you think that this has happened?
MCCARTHY: I think there are a number of reasons for it. We certainly heard tom Calma at the launch this morning and he looked at issues like changes in bureaucracy, bureaucrats and politicians. That is a fair comment, one thing you do hear from First Nations People is that everything is constantly changing people dont have the chance to maintain a real flow or a consistent one and in some respects David, you need to say here is a ten year budget, go for it, stick with it, and make sure you get these numbers down.
SPEERS: A good point about staff turnover and political turnover, because these are complex issues because every new person has to spend a lot of time understand and build the relationships and what is important here.
MCCARTHY: Then there is politics of the relationships, and I think one of the most amazing things of the Closing the Gap when it was introduced into the Australian Parliament is that it was a message from the Australian Parliament regardless of any political party that this was a day, one day in the Australian calendar that says we as Australians recognise that First Nations People in this country deserve to have a better life. I think if we can follow in the vein of that principle of good will and good intent then lets listen to what these leaders are saying if the financial issues are really whats at the bottom of this.
SPEERS: Well the financials, lets talk about this. Is it a problem of money?
MCCARTHY: Money is very important, really, when you look at remote regions and the roads and the infrastructure clearly money is very much an important aspect to this. But there is another principle which is absolutely fundamental that always seems to get overlooked, and that is the real engagement with First Nations People on the ground and the inclusiveness.
SPEERS: I want to come to that because Labor today is talking about how to do that, but on the money, it is important as you say it is, is enough being spent, would Labor spend any more?
MCCARTHY: We would certainly want to make sure that there is a far greater coordination of how this money is being spent.
SPEERS: Not the quantum, the amount I am talking about.
MCCARTHY: We are hearing from NACCHO and the CEOs today, talking about the fact that the dollar for dollar in terms of the Commonwealth and the states is not being spent, and we need to actually understand that and unpack that. I would like to say that we could but it is not my place in terms of the Shadow Treasurer. But it is certainly a conversation that the First Nations Caucus is working on, in terms of what we can do in Indigenous Affairs.
SPEERS: Engagement though, today we have heard yourself, Pat Dodson, Bill Shorten talking about this, one of the recommendations is to give greater control over how money is spent and programs are run to local Indigenous communities and leaders, how would that make a difference practically?
MCCARTHY: We have seen it with community-run organisations, you only have to look at the Aboriginal community controlled health boards across the country and what they have been able to do in the ebb and flow on whether they have got consistent funding. There is some pretty outstanding examples there and they do need to be consistently supported over a period of time without having the rug pulled out in terms of funding. We have seen the examples are there so how about we build on those.
SPEERS: So again what does that mean in practice?
MCCARTHY: Well it means in practice that we speak directly to the Indigenous people within these organisations, within the boards, community controlled. Its not going to work everywhere, so naturally, we will have to work out what happens in other areas that dont have community control.
SPEERS: Are you talking about whether it is trying to tackle the real problem of Indigenous remote housing, handing the pot of money over to the local community and saying you can decide how that is spent?
MCCARTHY: Can I just go on housing then, because the issue that we are facing at the moment is the withdrawal of housing and money for that from June this year. We have just had ten years of substantial amounts of money going in. If housing money is withdrawn from the states, as it is being said to be, that is going to have a dramatic impact even more on closing the gap. If people dont have homes then, of course, those issues of overcrowding and unhealthy living will be compounded.
SPEERS: Labor would restore that housing money?
MCCARTHY: We need to absolutely look at what we can do to get the housing back on track.
SPEERS: That half a billion dollars being talked about today would that go back in?
MCCARTHY: I would absolutely love to see housing back on the agenda, certainly for Labor when we are in Government.
SPEERS: I appreciate that you are not the Shadow Treasurer but again back on the question on who controls how it is spent. Is that what you are talking about with housing you would change the way that money is handled?
MCCARTHY: Lets simplify it a bit more than that. It is actually about the inclusion of Indigenous people at the table. If that means having them in housing development meetings, if that means having them on medical boards that are discussing which dialysis area or where this funding will go in terms of dealing with STDs or any other illnesses it means having Indigenous people right at the table from the beginning.
SPEERS: Thats not happening?
MCCARTHY: They are certainly saying that they are not at the table and that is what we have got to follow up on. And they said that this morning and that was really at the launch.
SPEERS: That was one of the key themes. When it comes to life expectancy, we have seen not enough progress on this front, whats going to change that? This is the one that so many people look at.
MCCARTHY: Life expectancy? Good question. I look at this all the time in terms of what is our vision as a country for First Nations People, some people even today were saying nothing is changing, what happens do we withdraw the money? No, we dont give up, we dont surrender the journey. Aboriginal and Islander people in this country have a fundamental human right to exist, just like anyone else, and just because the problem is not getting solved, that doesnt mean we walk away from it.
SPEERS: So stick with the Close the Gap targets.
MCCARTHY: Sure.
SPEERS: Youre not saying walk away from these?
MCCARTHY: Absolutely not.
SPEERS: It just means trying to change the way that we meet them. Labor is also keen on adding more targets.
MCCARTHY: Listen our country is so good a fixing problem when we put our mind to it.
SPEERS: Not when you look at the progress on these targets.
MCCARTHY: Let me give you another example. When it was introduced to get rid of smoking in this country everyone went no! When I was working people were smoking at their desks, wed get on planes and they would say smoking aisle or non-smoking, ah hello? This country and culture changed that completely. Well, you know what David? We can do the same to improve the lives of First Nations People.
SPEERS: Labors additional targets would be one on youth justice, youth incarceration rates.
MCCARTHY: Absolutely. Weve always been looking at justice targets and we really want to see justice targets in there. The high incarceration rates of Indigenous people is also increasing at a dramatic pace and thats got to stop.
SPEERS: Is there also one on family violence that Labor wants to include here as well?
MCCARTHY: We look at family violence anyway within our policies going forward. We certainly want to make sure people are safe wherever they are and thats a given black, white or brindle.
SPEERS: How do you do that though? How do you put a target on that?
MCCARTHY: You look at pieces of legislation, you look at the rise in the jail rates, you look at the health conditions and the reports back from the hospitals and you also look at our children and what sort of future are we providing for them. I think when a child comes into the world we dont want to say that your life is going to be about ending up in jail or sitting in a dialysis chair in a remote community. We have to be better than that.
SPEERS: Now all of these issues Senator, the health, the education, the incarceration rates, family violence these are real-life practical problems that Indigenous Australians are facing. Where do debates like changing the date of Australia Day fit into this?
MCCARTHY: Look we can do many things at once David. We are pretty smart people and we can have conversations on many things at once.
SPEERS: So do you want to change the date.
MCCARTHY: We dont need to change the date if we havent changed all these conditions for our people.
SPEERS: A couple of other things if I can get your reaction to, Jacinta Price the news today that she is going to run for the CLP in the seat of Lingiari in the next Federal Election, or at least she wants to, how do you think she would go?
MCCARTHY: I think any Indigenous person that wants to put their hand up for politics at a local, state or federal level I would always encourage them to do so. But I reckon weve got the best member in Lingiari in Warren Snowdon David.
SPEERS: Who would you rather have on this occasion you have a non-Indigenous
MCCARTHY: It doesnt matter. Im a very strong supporter for the Labor party and I know that were an imperfect party like any other party but its the people in it. And I think there are people out there that want to join the Greens or the LNP well you go for it. It is bloody hard whatever party you go into, but I can certainly say, working with Warren Snowdon that he is fantastic for Lingiari.
SPEERS: It is an interesting one because you obviously want more Indigenous Australians in Parliament.
MCCARTHY: Lets go on that
SPEERS: You probably dont live in the seat of Lingiari
MCCARTHY: I am in Solomon.
SPEERS: Who would you vote for if you had a choice Warren Snowdon or Jacinta Price?
MCCARTHY: Warren Snowdon hands down! Thanks for the free plug. But can I just say when it comes to Indigenous voices, this is where when the Prime Minister says no to the Uluru Statement because there are Indigenous voices in the Parliament. I just say to the Prime Minister on something as important as Close the Gap, Indigenous members of Parliament have not been included in this process and this has been an incredible flaw in that argument of the Prime Ministers so if people out there want to join Parliament I would say absolutely put your hand up but I also know that in terms of the Northern Territory weve some pretty good members there.
SPEERS: Just finally on the Northern Territory, the Yothu Yindi Foundation in Arnhem Land has alleged that the money that should be spent on remote areas in the Territory is being spent in Darwin predominately, or too much of it. What do you say to that?
MCCARTHY: We always have to have a look at where the financial breakdown is. I do believe that the Yothu Yindi Foundation has anexcellent understanding of what is going on with the Yolngu in that region. I think the Productivity Commission has some really important decisions to make on these issues. Always at the end of the day though weve got to recognise it is also about making sure that every area has the support financially to improve.
SPEERS: Yeah including those remote areas. Is too much going to Darwin?
MCCARTHY: Look Darwin would say that we need more in terms of business and major business and investment. I would say that more needs to go out to our regions, in particular, our homelands for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who want to live on Country. But there is something else in it too David. We also need to look at the private sector and what availability there is for financial institutions to loans and be able to provide funding for those who want to be able to build or do whatever in terms of business on their own land.
SPEERS: Labors Malarndirri McCarthy, thanks so much for joining us this afternoon, we appreciate it.
MCCARTHY: Thank you.
