Subjects: Closing the Gap, Barnaby Joyce, apology to survivors of institutional child sexual abuse, NT Royal Commission

KARVELAS: The Federal Governments Closing the Gap policy aimed at improving the lives of Indigenous people isnt meeting its targets. Ten years after it was first launched a review of the policy of a coalition of non-government organisations says the Government has effectively abandoned the initiative by reducing funding and it has lamented a revolving door of Prime Ministers. Basically, eyes have not been on this ball.

Malarndirri McCarthy is the Labor Senator for the Northern Territory, she joins us now, welcome to RN Drive.

MCCARTHY: Hello Patricia.

KARVELAS: The Federal Government looks set to overhaul or, to refresh is the language they are using the policy, given this group today this report says that the strategy isn't working, isn't this a move in the right direction?

MCCARTHY: Well Tom Calma said it in the launch this morning Patricia that he can identify that the reasons in which many of them see this going off the rails has been changes in bureaucracy and bureaucrats and even in politicians and I think there's a there's a fair comment in there in terms of the longevity of funding and in this case there hasn't been that consistency in the financial support that's been required in some of the different areas of health and education and the other target areas.

KARVELAS: One of the criticisms has been that informing the targets that it was all rushed that's what the Government's argued that it was rushed and that was part of the problem, do you think..?

MCCARTHY: What back in ten years ago you mean?

KARVELAS: That is right ten years ago that the actual formation of this policy has been rushed do you concede that perhaps it was wrong?

MCCARTHY: Oh look Patricia seriously I don't think we can be looking at something ten years later and say well wasn't rushed ten years ago? We've had a decade to get this right, and I think what needs to happen now is a bold correction in terms of the financial sustainability many of these organisations there are two things that have occurred. One is the consistent changes to budgetary allocations. We only have to remember the cuts you know back in 2014/15, and then you do have these community health organisations and others who do require a voice at the table, and they haven't had that, certainly not in this negotiation that's happened today and tomorrow.

KARVELAS: Justice targets to prevent Indigenous incarceration which has been really at staggering rates it's been a real crisis in the number of Indigenous people jailed, including very young Indigenous people, also recidivism, also child protection issues the number of Indigenous children being removed from families - these all set to be included in perhaps new goals, I mean it's in a discussion paper we won't know till the middle of this year. Do you support this do you think that's the way to correct this kind of project to work towards a better strategy?

MCCARTHY: What I support is the thorough and genuine engagement of First Nations People in this whole process and that is what has been lacking and it was raised today, Patricia, that even in the lead up to the conversation around refreshing Close the Gap that has not occurred, certainly not in the Parliament and I do want to point this to you to your listeners. When this was introduced ten years ago, it was the one moment of the parliamentary date in the calendar where all parliamentarians came together in a unanimous fashion to say, enough. We are working together as a Parliament as Australian Parliament for the First Nations People to see lives improve. Now that meant bipartisanship all the way, and you only have to go back to Brendan Nelson and other leaders along the way who've repeated that and supported that, but in the last couple of months, we have not saying that bipartisanship take place.

KARVERLAS: Labor says more money is needed how much more. What figure would you like to see committed to this refresh of the Closing the Gap strategy?

MCCARTHY: Look I'm concerned about putting a dollar figure until I can say that First Nations People have a thorough and sincere engagement at the table and that is what is absent here.

KARVELAS: But are you talking substantial amounts of money I mean this is the government would argue that it has been investing money in the strategy that it might be more about the way that the strategy is being rolled out your argument is that it's actually about how much money is being invested?

MCCARTHY: It's how much money is being invested, where is it being invested, and are First Nations People the ones who are determining that direction. I think you know just to look at a community controlled health sector with the Aboriginal health centres across Australia they know the issues in their regions and their particular communities, and there has to be that genuine engagement. Sometimes it's not about a one year to one year's cycle, maybe this is where the Australian Parliament, says alright if we are absolutely fair dinkum about closing the gap then let's make sure this strategy is a financial consistent situation for ten years.

KARVELAS: I just want to ask you about another story which has broken today, in fact, couple leave the number of really significant things that have happened today. The Commonwealth Government has just put out in a press release this afternoon, I'm sitting at my desk just to give people a picture of what we do here, and I thought well this is another huge story the Commonwealth Government's response to the Royal Commission into the protection of detention of children in the Northern Territory was delivered this afternoon as well, very late this afternoon, it says it will work closely with the N.T. Government to improve the safety of children and also work on early intervention for at-risk children. What do you make of the government's response to that detention for young people Indigenous Australians in the NT?

MCCARTHY: Well I obviously need to have a good look at that response as well that's come out I now think about in the last ten-fifteen minutes I think Patricia, on my way up here. At the end of the day, the role Commission into the Northern Territory is about the Commonwealth and the Northern Territory working together so whatever direction that they have to go forward in terms of you know over the two hundred recommendations there must be that joint commitment at both the Commonwealth and the Territory level. Because the Northern Territory can't do it on its own.

KARVELAS: Just on another very big issue that's happened today we've already covered it just a little earlier on RN drive, and that's this promise for an apology to the victims of institutional child sexual abuse by the end of the year. What's your reaction to that announcement?

MCCARTHY: I don't think any Australian cannot be affected after hearing the stories and you know knowing personal stories. I mean I certainly know personal stories of people involved in those situations, and I think that for the Australian Parliament to address it in a very responsible respectable manner that is what would be expected. I think that in terms of whether that would solve or eradicate anything, I don't think so, because I have to reflect on the Stolen Generations and the apology I mean that moment in our country's history was like a moment where we all had one heartbeat you know, and I think that if the Australian Parliament can again reach out to they survivors it and their families with that heartfelt apology and I think that would be a really beautiful moment if done in the right way.

KARVELAS: Just to completely change the topic with absolutely no reference other than this is a huge story today and I'd really like to get your commentary on it. What do you think of Kathy McGowan suggestion, that we follow the lead of US Congress and ban relationships between politicians and staffers? This in the wake of course of the Barnaby Joyce story.

MCCARTHY: I just wonder how you'd police that Patricia.

KARVELAS: I don't have an answer.

MCCARTHY: It was the first thing I thought oh that's interesting how would you police that, I mean you know how would you police that?

KARVELAS: It would be tricky but conceptually I mean is it something do we need tighter guidelines or do we need to have at least conversation around the idea of staff and they effectively their bosses having you know sexual relationships.

MCCARTHY: Well isn't that what conflict of interest is all about. I mean don't we already have you know areas of reporting certainly here in the parliament in terms of what politicians have in terms of interests and the reporting of those in the mechanisms we saw what happened to Sussan Ley the travel issue and the reporting that is now tightened up as a result of that. I think you know there has to be a point of common sense and there has to be a point to you know a conflict of interest and people you know,knowing where to draw the line. I mean, how far do you invade a person's privacy?

KARVELAS: Well there's a there's an active debate about that now. Do you think that the reporting of all the revelations about Barnaby Joyce's relationship was in the public interest?

MCCARTHY: I think it's just really sad you know it's very sad for all concerned. I think that the real question here is how is a person work be impacted and affected and at the end of the day were put here by the voters, and the voters will decide whether we stay here.

KARVELAS: Yeah they definitely decide. That is something that we can all agree, I bet all the listeners will be agreeing too.

Malarndirri, thank you for joining me.

MCCARTHY: Thank you, Patricia.